Shall We Dance? Part 1
OK...for many of you, this will be a dry and boring read. Sorry about that. I was going to post it on James's site, but the blog (Ex-Fundamentalist Goes Dancing) seems to be gone. The original post that sparked this discussion is here.
So I am posting it here.
I think James has alot of Bible knowledge, that he is fun, that he knows how to reach people for the Lord.
I think that the singles who would come to the Christ Centered Singles Dance are grown-up Christian people. I don't think that they are coming to these dances as a pickup event. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing unseemly at the Christian dances in Warr Acres and it would be reasonable thinking that we could expect the same at the CUBE.
I think all the people who are heading this up are well-intentioned people and that they are not trying to "put anything over" on anybody.
I want those of you who fit into one of the above categories to know that I am not mad at you. I am not trying to ruin your fun. I am not judging you and I hope you will not judge me.
What I will say is that having a social dance on the church property runs all over me...for a number of reasons...and I am trying to sort them out.
So...here is the first (yes, I said first) installment of "Why I Think We Should Not Have a Dance at the Cube".
I have taken all the verses that I could find regarding dancing and looked them up. Next, I looked up "dancing" in Strong's for each verse...
Then I put the verses under each "dance" word catagory, so that there would be some kind of order. In doing that, I found that there was not any real benefit in knowing whether the dance word in Hebrew was "chuwl" or "machowlah"...so no real insight there.
Finally I made comments under the verses...
If I was more creative/computer-blog savvy I would have used different colors, fonts, etc for the different parts...sorry..I'm just not that good.
(Revisory note...color added for your reading pleasure:-)!)
And a one, and a two....
MACHOWLAH- (STRONG'S 04246) dancing, dance (Beit Tehila-a dance company/dances)
1. "Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. 21 Miriam sang to them:
"Sing to the LORD,
for he is highly exalted.
The horse and its rider
he has hurled into the sea." Exodus 15:20-21
This was a dance by the women only, a spontaneous act of celebration and joy, to praise the Lord...("Sing to the Lord...")
2. "As they returned home, after David had killed the Philistine, the women poured out of all the villages of Israel singing and dancing, welcoming King Saul with tambourines, festive songs, and lutes. In playful frolic the women sang,
Saul kills by the thousand,
David by the ten thousand!" 1 Samuel 18:6-7 (also 1 Samuel 21:11 and 1 Samuel 20:5)
This was a dance by the women only, a spontaneous act of celebration and joy for Saul (the king provided by the Lord as was spoken through Samuel) and David (the giant killer), who had killed Goliath with God's help.
3. "Jephthah came home to Mizpah. His daughter ran from the house to welcome him home dancing to tambourines! She was his only child. He had no son or daughter except her. When he realized who it was, he ripped his clothes, saying, "Ah, dearest daughter, I'm dirt. I'm despicable. My heart is torn to shreds. I made a vow to GOD and I can't take it back!" Judges 11:34-35
Jehpthah was dancing in celebration for the return of her father, at their home.
4. "[ Friends ] Come back, come back, O Shulammite; come back, come back, that we may gaze on you! [ Lover ] Why would you gaze on the Shulammite as on the dance of Mahanaim?" Song of Solomon 6:13
(Mahanaim-two camps, a place near Jabbok, beyond Jordan River, where Jacob was met by the "angels of God," and where he divided his retinue into "two hosts" on his return from Padan-aram (Gen. 32:2).)
This is not actually a reference to the dancing of the Shulaamite or a dance of Jacob, as far as I can tell...if this is the deciding factor in having dances at a Baptist church property, let me know and I'll look at it some more.:-))
5. "When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD." 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry."
"When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain." Exodus 32:5-6,19
This is actually all the people..not just the women. And notice that it is happening under the heading of a festival to the Lord. Aaron said it was
to the Lord (Strong's 3068-Jehovah)...
to honor the Lord....
The party line was that this was for the Lord, yet they used a worldly outlet,
focusing on a pagan symbol..
It was anything but honoring to the Lord...it was the type of thing the pagan culture would have used and done.
MACHOWL-dance, dancing (STRONG'S 4234)
1. "You turned my wailing into dancing; you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy," Psalm 30:11
This is obviously a tribute to God as a reason for the dance.
2. "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp." Psalm 149:3
Praise God's name. Dancing to the Lord. Playing music to the Lord. The focus is the Lord.
3. "Praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute," Psalm 150:4
Again, praising God with the instruments and dancing. Not just any old words or focus. This does appear to mean everyone (men and women, but tradition holds that they probably didn't dance together), but it is a praising of God.
4. "I will build you up again and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel. Again you will take up your tambourines and go out to dance with the joyful." Jeremiah 31:4
Again, this is a dance of the joyful for what God has done for them.
5. "Then maidens will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow." Jeremiah 31:13 (see below)
"Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow." Jeremiah 31:13
Although this could be a dance-for-all (everyone together) it would appear that the men were dancing together as were the women dancing together. This was to the Lord, in praise to Him for turning their sorrow to joy.
6. "...joy is gone from our hearts; our dancing has turned to mourning." Lamentations 5:15
The dancing that had been performed out of joy was gone...no reason to dance because things were so bad.
CHUWL (as it pertains to dancing) (STRONG'S 02342) -to dance 2) to twist, writhe 3) to whirl, whirl about
1. "'But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah.'20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, 'Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin.' Judges 21:19-21
(This was probably a part of the Feast of the Tabernacles.)
(A quote from Commentary and Critical Explanatory on the Whole Bible)
"The dance was anciently a part of the religious observance. It was done on festive occasions, as it is still in the East, not in town, but in the open air, in some adjoining field, the women being by themselves."
CHAGAG (STRONG'S 02287) to hold a feast, hold a festival, make pilgrimage, keep a pilgrim-feast, celebrate, dance, stagger 1) to keep a pilgrim-feast 2) to reel
1. "And when he had brought David down, behold, the raiders (Amalekites-men) were spread abroad over all the land, eating and drinking and dancing because of all the great spoil they had taken from the land of the Philistines and from the land of Judah." 1 Samuel 30:16
Not that it matters:-), because they weren't part of God's people, but this was a men-only dance (not meant in a sexual way), and obviously not to God, since they were Amalekites.
ORCHEOMAI (STRONG'S 3738) to dance
1. "Herodias's daughter provided the entertainment, dancing for the guests. She swept Herod away. In his drunken enthusiasm, he promised her on oath anything she wanted." Matthew 14:6-7 (also Mark 6:22)
(Commentary by Matthew Henry)
"Here we have, (1.) The humouring of Herod by the damsel's dancing upon a birth-day. It seems, Herods birth-day was kept with some solemnity; in honour of the day, there must needs be, as usual, a ball at court; and, to grace the solemnity, the daughter of Herodias danced before them; who being the queen's daughter, it was more than she ordinarily condescended to do. Note, Times of carnal mirth and jollity are convenient times for carrying on bad designs against God's people."
"Carnal mirth"...wow...Well, for those of you young pups who don't know what "carnal" means, here's the definition from Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary:
Carnal-Enjoyments that minister to the wants and desires of man's animal nature are so called (Rom. 15:27; 1 Cor.9:11).
2. " 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.'" Matthew 11:17 (also Luke 7:32)
While this, of course, is not really about
children,
flute playing,
dirge singing,
dancing
and mourning,
it is interesting that when Jesus elaborates on this story, he talks about eating and drinking, not dancing...saying,
"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners.'" But wisdom is proved right by her actions." Matthew 11:19
The point here is not dancing. It is that whether it was an approach like John the Baptist (austere) or Jesus (open, loving) people always had some kind of criticism.
KARAR (STRONG'S 3769) (Pilpel) to whirl, dance a) whirling, dancing (participle)
1. "David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might," 2 Samuel 6:14(also 2 Samuel 6:16)
One person (David) dancing before the Lord in spontenaity.
PACACH (STRONG'S 6452) to pass over, spring over a) (Qal) to pass over b) (Piel) to skip, pass over, to limp
1. "So they (the priests---men) took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made." 1 Kings 18:26
Men only, dancing in praise to their pagan god.
RAQAD (STRONG'S 7540) to skip about a) (Qal) to skip about b) (Piel) to dance, leap c) (Hiphil) to make to skip
1. "Why do the wicked live on,
growing old and increasing in power?
8 They see their children established around them,
their offspring before their eyes.
9 Their homes are safe and free from fear;
the rod of God is not upon them.
10 Their bulls never fail to breed;
their cows calve and do not miscarry.
11 They send forth their children as a flock;
their little ones dance about." Job 21:8-11
2. "...a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance," Ecclesiastes 3:4
Raqad...Happy skipping....
The Job passage is speaking of wicked people, so I guess the dancing of the children is not "praise to God"...
And the second passage seems to just be a collection of opposites and the seasons for each...
CHOROS (STRONG'S 5525) a band (of dancers and singers), circular dance, a dance, dancing
"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing." Luke 15:25
This does not ever say that it is just women dancing...
nor does it say that the dancing is to praise God...
It is a family celebratory event in the father's home, however.
Not on the church property
In a nutshell, when the Bible refers to God's people dancing, it usually is referring to the women. Jesus may have danced but it doesn't seem likely... and He never said He did.
It does not seem to me that the Bible is silent on this issue at all. It gives many invitations for dancing as a praise to God with Him as the focus.
Singing to Him.
Dancing to Him.
Playing intruments with Him in mind.
Then there are instances of dancing within the family. Children dancing for the parents...A dance celebration in a home to welcome a long lost boy.
And finally, the examples of dancing
...with impure motives as Salome danced for the king to get what she wanted.
...Or the Israelites...God's people...dancing in praise to another god.
...Did they think they were dancing to God, as Aaron had told them?
...Or did they know that they were participating in a pagan ritual?
...Or... did they think it was kind of...both?
I don't know how you could look at a golden calf and focus on God. But more on that later.
The instances that refer to people dancing in praise of another "god" (whatever occupies one's time and thoughts and it could be anything...drinking, immorality, lost love, your new pick-up) or for the approval of men, had results that were not God-honoring.
But skipping seems to be OK:-).
Please understand that if these social dances are held off the property and are not sponsored by our church, I have much less issue with them. Then I would not have to explain to my children why they could not attend a church sponsored event (figuring that if people buy into the idea of Singles Dances at the church, dances for the Youth will follow).
The Bible does not say "Don't dance socially."
And on issues such as these, we (the grown-ups) are given freedom to make up our own minds.
But if it is a gray area, why have it on the church property?
COMING SOON...
two more posts dealing with this idea of a dance at the Cube and why I think it is not a good idea.
So I am posting it here.
I think James has alot of Bible knowledge, that he is fun, that he knows how to reach people for the Lord.
I think that the singles who would come to the Christ Centered Singles Dance are grown-up Christian people. I don't think that they are coming to these dances as a pickup event. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing unseemly at the Christian dances in Warr Acres and it would be reasonable thinking that we could expect the same at the CUBE.
I think all the people who are heading this up are well-intentioned people and that they are not trying to "put anything over" on anybody.
I want those of you who fit into one of the above categories to know that I am not mad at you. I am not trying to ruin your fun. I am not judging you and I hope you will not judge me.
What I will say is that having a social dance on the church property runs all over me...for a number of reasons...and I am trying to sort them out.
So...here is the first (yes, I said first) installment of "Why I Think We Should Not Have a Dance at the Cube".
I have taken all the verses that I could find regarding dancing and looked them up. Next, I looked up "dancing" in Strong's for each verse...
Then I put the verses under each "dance" word catagory, so that there would be some kind of order. In doing that, I found that there was not any real benefit in knowing whether the dance word in Hebrew was "chuwl" or "machowlah"...so no real insight there.
Finally I made comments under the verses...
If I was more creative/computer-blog savvy I would have used different colors, fonts, etc for the different parts...sorry..I'm just not that good.
(Revisory note...color added for your reading pleasure:-)!)
And a one, and a two....
MACHOWLAH- (STRONG'S 04246) dancing, dance (Beit Tehila-a dance company/dances)
1. "Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. 21 Miriam sang to them:
"Sing to the LORD,
for he is highly exalted.
The horse and its rider
he has hurled into the sea." Exodus 15:20-21
This was a dance by the women only, a spontaneous act of celebration and joy, to praise the Lord...("Sing to the Lord...")
2. "As they returned home, after David had killed the Philistine, the women poured out of all the villages of Israel singing and dancing, welcoming King Saul with tambourines, festive songs, and lutes. In playful frolic the women sang,
Saul kills by the thousand,
David by the ten thousand!" 1 Samuel 18:6-7 (also 1 Samuel 21:11 and 1 Samuel 20:5)
This was a dance by the women only, a spontaneous act of celebration and joy for Saul (the king provided by the Lord as was spoken through Samuel) and David (the giant killer), who had killed Goliath with God's help.
3. "Jephthah came home to Mizpah. His daughter ran from the house to welcome him home dancing to tambourines! She was his only child. He had no son or daughter except her. When he realized who it was, he ripped his clothes, saying, "Ah, dearest daughter, I'm dirt. I'm despicable. My heart is torn to shreds. I made a vow to GOD and I can't take it back!" Judges 11:34-35
Jehpthah was dancing in celebration for the return of her father, at their home.
4. "[ Friends ] Come back, come back, O Shulammite; come back, come back, that we may gaze on you! [ Lover ] Why would you gaze on the Shulammite as on the dance of Mahanaim?" Song of Solomon 6:13
(Mahanaim-two camps, a place near Jabbok, beyond Jordan River, where Jacob was met by the "angels of God," and where he divided his retinue into "two hosts" on his return from Padan-aram (Gen. 32:2).)
This is not actually a reference to the dancing of the Shulaamite or a dance of Jacob, as far as I can tell...if this is the deciding factor in having dances at a Baptist church property, let me know and I'll look at it some more.:-))
5. "When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD." 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry."
"When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain." Exodus 32:5-6,19
This is actually all the people..not just the women. And notice that it is happening under the heading of a festival to the Lord. Aaron said it was
to the Lord (Strong's 3068-Jehovah)...
to honor the Lord....
The party line was that this was for the Lord, yet they used a worldly outlet,
focusing on a pagan symbol..
It was anything but honoring to the Lord...it was the type of thing the pagan culture would have used and done.
MACHOWL-dance, dancing (STRONG'S 4234)
1. "You turned my wailing into dancing; you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy," Psalm 30:11
This is obviously a tribute to God as a reason for the dance.
2. "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp." Psalm 149:3
Praise God's name. Dancing to the Lord. Playing music to the Lord. The focus is the Lord.
3. "Praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute," Psalm 150:4
Again, praising God with the instruments and dancing. Not just any old words or focus. This does appear to mean everyone (men and women, but tradition holds that they probably didn't dance together), but it is a praising of God.
4. "I will build you up again and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel. Again you will take up your tambourines and go out to dance with the joyful." Jeremiah 31:4
Again, this is a dance of the joyful for what God has done for them.
5. "Then maidens will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow." Jeremiah 31:13 (see below)
"Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow." Jeremiah 31:13
Although this could be a dance-for-all (everyone together) it would appear that the men were dancing together as were the women dancing together. This was to the Lord, in praise to Him for turning their sorrow to joy.
6. "...joy is gone from our hearts; our dancing has turned to mourning." Lamentations 5:15
The dancing that had been performed out of joy was gone...no reason to dance because things were so bad.
CHUWL (as it pertains to dancing) (STRONG'S 02342) -to dance 2) to twist, writhe 3) to whirl, whirl about
1. "'But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah.'20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, 'Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin.' Judges 21:19-21
(This was probably a part of the Feast of the Tabernacles.)
(A quote from Commentary and Critical Explanatory on the Whole Bible)
"The dance was anciently a part of the religious observance. It was done on festive occasions, as it is still in the East, not in town, but in the open air, in some adjoining field, the women being by themselves."
CHAGAG (STRONG'S 02287) to hold a feast, hold a festival, make pilgrimage, keep a pilgrim-feast, celebrate, dance, stagger 1) to keep a pilgrim-feast 2) to reel
1. "And when he had brought David down, behold, the raiders (Amalekites-men) were spread abroad over all the land, eating and drinking and dancing because of all the great spoil they had taken from the land of the Philistines and from the land of Judah." 1 Samuel 30:16
Not that it matters:-), because they weren't part of God's people, but this was a men-only dance (not meant in a sexual way), and obviously not to God, since they were Amalekites.
ORCHEOMAI (STRONG'S 3738) to dance
1. "Herodias's daughter provided the entertainment, dancing for the guests. She swept Herod away. In his drunken enthusiasm, he promised her on oath anything she wanted." Matthew 14:6-7 (also Mark 6:22)
(Commentary by Matthew Henry)
"Here we have, (1.) The humouring of Herod by the damsel's dancing upon a birth-day. It seems, Herods birth-day was kept with some solemnity; in honour of the day, there must needs be, as usual, a ball at court; and, to grace the solemnity, the daughter of Herodias danced before them; who being the queen's daughter, it was more than she ordinarily condescended to do. Note, Times of carnal mirth and jollity are convenient times for carrying on bad designs against God's people."
"Carnal mirth"...wow...Well, for those of you young pups who don't know what "carnal" means, here's the definition from Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary:
Carnal-Enjoyments that minister to the wants and desires of man's animal nature are so called (Rom. 15:27; 1 Cor.9:11).
2. " 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.'" Matthew 11:17 (also Luke 7:32)
While this, of course, is not really about
children,
flute playing,
dirge singing,
dancing
and mourning,
it is interesting that when Jesus elaborates on this story, he talks about eating and drinking, not dancing...saying,
"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners.'" But wisdom is proved right by her actions." Matthew 11:19
The point here is not dancing. It is that whether it was an approach like John the Baptist (austere) or Jesus (open, loving) people always had some kind of criticism.
KARAR (STRONG'S 3769) (Pilpel) to whirl, dance a) whirling, dancing (participle)
1. "David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might," 2 Samuel 6:14(also 2 Samuel 6:16)
One person (David) dancing before the Lord in spontenaity.
PACACH (STRONG'S 6452) to pass over, spring over a) (Qal) to pass over b) (Piel) to skip, pass over, to limp
1. "So they (the priests---men) took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made." 1 Kings 18:26
Men only, dancing in praise to their pagan god.
RAQAD (STRONG'S 7540) to skip about a) (Qal) to skip about b) (Piel) to dance, leap c) (Hiphil) to make to skip
1. "Why do the wicked live on,
growing old and increasing in power?
8 They see their children established around them,
their offspring before their eyes.
9 Their homes are safe and free from fear;
the rod of God is not upon them.
10 Their bulls never fail to breed;
their cows calve and do not miscarry.
11 They send forth their children as a flock;
their little ones dance about." Job 21:8-11
2. "...a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance," Ecclesiastes 3:4
Raqad...Happy skipping....
The Job passage is speaking of wicked people, so I guess the dancing of the children is not "praise to God"...
And the second passage seems to just be a collection of opposites and the seasons for each...
CHOROS (STRONG'S 5525) a band (of dancers and singers), circular dance, a dance, dancing
"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing." Luke 15:25
This does not ever say that it is just women dancing...
nor does it say that the dancing is to praise God...
It is a family celebratory event in the father's home, however.
Not on the church property
In a nutshell, when the Bible refers to God's people dancing, it usually is referring to the women. Jesus may have danced but it doesn't seem likely... and He never said He did.
It does not seem to me that the Bible is silent on this issue at all. It gives many invitations for dancing as a praise to God with Him as the focus.
Singing to Him.
Dancing to Him.
Playing intruments with Him in mind.
Then there are instances of dancing within the family. Children dancing for the parents...A dance celebration in a home to welcome a long lost boy.
And finally, the examples of dancing
...with impure motives as Salome danced for the king to get what she wanted.
...Or the Israelites...God's people...dancing in praise to another god.
...Did they think they were dancing to God, as Aaron had told them?
...Or did they know that they were participating in a pagan ritual?
...Or... did they think it was kind of...both?
I don't know how you could look at a golden calf and focus on God. But more on that later.
The instances that refer to people dancing in praise of another "god" (whatever occupies one's time and thoughts and it could be anything...drinking, immorality, lost love, your new pick-up) or for the approval of men, had results that were not God-honoring.
But skipping seems to be OK:-).
Please understand that if these social dances are held off the property and are not sponsored by our church, I have much less issue with them. Then I would not have to explain to my children why they could not attend a church sponsored event (figuring that if people buy into the idea of Singles Dances at the church, dances for the Youth will follow).
The Bible does not say "Don't dance socially."
And on issues such as these, we (the grown-ups) are given freedom to make up our own minds.
But if it is a gray area, why have it on the church property?
COMING SOON...
two more posts dealing with this idea of a dance at the Cube and why I think it is not a good idea.
posted by angela at 12:15 AM
12 Comments:
There's a lot of good information there.
Angela,
I totally agree with you. I know the pastor is on mission trip but I am interested to know if he is ok with this dance. BTW- the Bible does have LOTS of things we shouldn't do as well. for instance, David danced naked...are we supposed to?
Was he actually naked or just in his underwear? Either way, I get your point...And yes, Rick and James are both on the mission trip. It would appear that it was OK with Rick, though, because the original post did mention having a dance at the Cube and Rick said,
**************
Good post James- keep it up!
This is the wildest green I have ever seen on a blog- you are definately breaking out.
*****************
Chris had mentioned doing a study on Jewish culture to clear up the cultural taboo (or not) on dancing in biblical times...I am hoping that this post did that.
I am hoping to get my next installement out this week, and hopefully even the last (?) one.
I don't know who is reading this if anyone, but I really think there are some solid biblical reasons not to go through with this and I pray that even if they have it, whatever needed to be said gets said by me or others...
I hope I don't offend anyone, but while I enjoyed reading this post for the insight, I have to disagree with you. I see many problems with taking too much of the Bible literally because 1)much of it was written in parables (greater understanding for the masses...as Jesus taught), and 2)we should not live to emulate a culture of another time period. Just as you would not live as a Medieval person, neither should you emulate the culture of 2000+ years ago. We don't wear sackcloth & sandals, hide women during their menses, or avoid eating shellfish. I guess, simply, I believe it far better to celebrate the Lord with singing and dancing in praise of all He has given us...including one another.
Wow Kimba...I wasn't expecting anyone who was not from our church to plow through this...actually the issue here is one of a dance which is being promoted at our church...actually across the street in our church-paid-for community center building...the issues here are several...
1. It is unclear whether this has been presented to the church properly, as dancing has always been kind of a dicey issue within our denomination.
2. Whether it is appropriate for our church to host such an event, biblically (the subissues there being dancing itself, purity and division...purity and division being my other two posts that will be forthcoming).
Our church has been through a series of changes over the past 3 years or so...some of them have been good, some have not, some have been brought on too quickly.
This original post on dancing was posted because it was suggested that maybe a cultural study on dancing in biblical times might provide some insight. So I decided to start there.
Please don't misunderstand..I do not think we should all start dressing as the early Christians or give up comforts that we have and that will make us more "spiritual". What I do think is that the Bible does speak on this issue...not in a nice neat little package, but it does have some examples to give and things to say. I do think that dancing is an excellent way to praise the Lord, and I even have no trouble with us using that, as long as He is the focus...that is part of the question.
The other two posts will also be heavily scriptural, and generally we do take the Bible pretty literally as far as the ideology therein. Otherwise, it would just be our opinions that we would have to draw from.
I wish you could read the blog that this discussion stemmed from, but it has been pulled from our Singles Minister's blogsite.
Please stop by again soon. :-)
Angela :-)
You know... I think it's good to celebrate the Lord with singing and dancing too. Clearly the text from Angela's study talks about that. But, playing secular music in the evening for singles to dance to, including singles who are not christian and not members of our church..... well I'm not sure how that fits in with celebrating the Lord.
I guess that is what I am hoping we will be able to come to a consensus on at the end of this...just because someone says something is Christ Centered, does that make it so? If an activity seems Christ Centered for me, does that mean it is also good for a group of people?
And if someone can listen to the Twisted Sister song "We're Not Gonna Take It" (for example, because it was used as an example previously) and be edified, does that mean that a roomful of people (believers) would also feel edified (and thinking of Christ) by the same? Or would it be better to listen to it by yourself?
So many things to consider...Thanks Ken, Kimba and Kristina for your thoughts as well. ;-)
Angela, first thanks for explaining the situation a bit more. I suppose, from the point of view of someone outside of your congregation/denomination, and someone who was raised at a church who did have public dances, I see that it does benefit not only the church community, but God's intent as well. Opening your church hall up to the public, in an informal setting, creates a mission to the local community that you are welcoming and inviting, thus allowing the possibility of growing members who may otherwise have been lost to your Christian faith & church. Some people are not comfortable in the "typical" church setting, but something like a dance opens doors...and hearts. As Christians we are taught to marry, have children, etc. In this day and age it becomes more and more difficult for anyone outside of college to do that (unless you want to turn to online dating or the bar scene). Wouldn't it be a much better setting to meet people, especcially people with like minds, at a church sponsored dance?
Perhaps I'm off base here, since I am not a part of your church, but I simply don't see the downside to all this.
Maybe we could have a carnival every Tuesday night and pay some indian guru guys to walk on hot coals. I'll bet that would draw a crowd. :)
OK, Mr. Funnyman...get serious:-):-)
I totally see what Kimba is saying... I have even said it myself that once you graduate from college (assuming one was able to go) the pool of available single people decreases dramatically.
And it would seem that church functions would be a good place to meet people who wouldn't be scary.
And actually, the building in question (right across the street from our church) is free and open to the public, with basketball courts, a big commons area with a coffee bar, a weight room and probably lots of other things that I don't know about. It is open every day and into the evening and that is exactly why we funded it...so that it would be an open door to the community.
And I think that the singles have had a number of events that were fellowship based...cookouts, superbowl party, volleyball, and probably other things as well.
I don't want to steal my own thunder here,:-) so I am not going to get too much into the rest of my reasoning for not having dances on our property (on this particular post) beyond what I have already said about just the subject of "dancing" itself...but stay tuned if you want to. I hope to have something else ready sometime this week.
I will tell you that they have had these dances for some time, not formally sponsored by our church, in a city community building. If they had stayed there, I would not have had a word to say about it. In fact, I knew of these Christian dances at least 2 years ago...at the Community Center of Warr Acres.
Thanks Kimba (and Kenny)...and feel free to post anytime...I read some things on your blog really enjoyed it.
We are back from our long week, and I'm finally back to blogging again. Great to see your posts again. Hope you had a great Memorial Day weekend!
I'm still looking for installment #2 :)
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